Lourdes Tai Chi Program
To promote and educate the Southern Tier community to Tai Chi for health program at Guthrie Lourdes It is not limited to specific age group.
Through the support of local health department, and NY state department of health, with collaboration and partnership of local area hospitals and other non for profit community organizations of Southern Tier:
many instructors were trained and certified by Tai Chi for health Institute to teach and share the principles of Tai Chi for health promotion and wellness of the local communities in the are
With benefits that include reducing blood pressure, boosting brain health and preventing falls, tai chi is at the top of the list of recommended exercises for older adults.
Reason to Try Tai Chi After 50
Experts say this ancient practice may be the No. 1 exercise for an aging brain and body, preventing falls, improving mood, lowering blood pressure and relieving pain.
Beginners class starting in a week Tuesday June 25th held Tuesday and Thursdays for 8 weeks from 3:30pm-4:30pm a Guthrie Vestal : 3101 shippers road : registration online: https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital-1? -content%23main-content
Tai Chi for Osteoporosis …. Summer 2024
Tai chi can help with Bone Health, an exercise program that can help improve your Bone density !!! Join our Tai chi for Osteoporosis class today!!!
Summer Session 2024 - Starting June 24
In Our Strength, Friendship and humility welcoming Summer 2024
Dear Tai Chi Friends,
Thank you for participating in our Spring 2024 Tai Chi Session. As this season concludes, we look forward to continuing our practice together through the coming seasons.
Our goal has been to establish a routine that supports your daily practice, fostering a community where we encourage and support each other in this lifelong journey. We've built friendships, accepted our humilities, and gained greater respect for ourselves and our community. This past season, our Lourdes Tai Chi Community remained strong with over 80 participants.
Since our program began in 2015, we've expanded beyond Tai Chi for Arthritis and Fall Prevention classes. Each season, we offer a variety of health classes that bring new dimensions to our practice. By incorporating Chen, Yang, and Sun styles, our "Tai Chi for Health" classes enhance our practice and help us apply Tai Chi principles to daily life, promoting "Mindful Being."
We hope we have provided a meaningful experience in your practice, nurturing your growth and development in this beautiful art. We aim to continue supporting your progress.
This summer, we will continue offering a wide array of classes, including occasional Tai Chi practice in the park on Saturdays to connect with nature. We encourage you to maintain your practice despite the nice weather and summer plans, making it a part of your life routine.
Here are your options for the Summer Session:
1. Instructional Classes (Commitment to the entire session):
- Tai Chi for Osteoporosis (Fusion of Yang and Sun)
- Tai Chi for Arthritis 12
- Tai Chi for Arthritis 6 (Beginners)
- Tai Chi for Arthritis 2 (32 Forms)
- Tai Chi for Life (Intro to Tai Chi - Beginners)
- Sun 73 - Part 3 - Instructional
2. Continuous Practice Classes - Beginners (Commitment to the entire session):
- Tai Chi for Arthritis Continuous Practice
- Tai Chi for Arthritis Continuous 32 Beginners
- Sun 73 - Part 2 - Continuous Practice
3. Continuous Practice Classes - Free Choice of Practice:
- Tai Chi for Arthritis Continuous 32 - Advanced
- Tai Chi for Osteoporosis - Continuous Practice
- Tai Chi for Energy - Continuous Practice
- Sun 73 - Continuous Practice
4. Combining Continuous Practice with New Instructional Classes
Features specific to the Summer Session:
1)- In preparation for introducing Yang 24 this fall, we offer the Tai Chi for Osteoporosis instructional class, which includes three predominant Yang 24 forms.
2)- Continuous Practice Classes allow you to attend any classes you have participated in before, choosing different practices each week without committing to one class.
3)- Your Choice, Your Practice: We encourage your summer participation by offering free choice of practice.
As long as you have taken the initial continuous practice course and meet the course prerequisites, you can choose the number of sessions and courses you wish to attend based on your needs and schedule, with a flexible fee structure.
We are committed to your practice and ensuring our program continues to grow under The Guthrie Clinic.
Please don't hesitate to contact us if you have any questions or concerns.
Phone : 607-698-6081 Email: [email protected]
We thank all those who joined us at Round top this morning at 10am to celebrate World Tai Chi Qigong day, sharing an hour of tai chi practice as we embraced the East's greeting and passed it on to the West at 11am, contributing to the global tai chi practice that helped the wave of Qi flow across time zones.
Spring evening classes for Beginners: will be starting May 6th, 2024
16 classes for $60.00 Held Twice a week for 8 weeks
Mondays and Wednesdays 5pm-6pm
Guthrie-Vestal 3101 Shippers Road
Registration required:
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital-0
Email us at [email protected]
Or call 607-698-6081 and leave a message .
Spring classes will be starting week of April 8th and will go through first week of June
Affordable prices : 16 classes over 8 weeks for $60.00
Class listing:
Tai chi for Health classes being offered by certified instructors of Tai chi for health institute :
Tai chi for arthritis 6 : beginners
April 9th through May 30th
Tuesdays and Thursdays 11am-12pm
16 classes over 8 weeks for $60.00
Tai chi for arthritis 12 : beginners part 2
April 10th through June 5th
Mondays 11:30. Wednesdays 11am
16 classes over 8 weeks for $60.00
Tai chi for arthritis 32: beginners part 3
April 9th through May 30th
Tuesdays and Thursdays 12:30-1:30pm
16 classes over 8 weeks for $60.00
Other classes offered for your ongoing practice and refinement of the forms :
Tai chi for Osteoporosis
Tai chi for energy
Tai chi for memory , heart and rehab
Sun 73
All classes held at Guthrie Vestal - 3101 shippers road , vestal
Registration required. For more information call us at 607-698-6081 or email [email protected]
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital
Fall Prevention in Older Adults - Fall Awareness
Tai chi can help prevent falls - register for our upcoming tai chi classes : https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital
"If you or an older adult in your life has fallen, you’re not alone. More than one in four people age 65 years or older fall each year. The risk of falling — and fall-related problems — rises with age. However, many falls can be prevented. For example, exercising, managing your medications, having your vision checked, and making your home safer are all steps you can take to prevent a fall.
Many older adults fear falling, even if they haven’t fallen before. This fear may lead them to avoid activities such as walking, shopping, or taking part in social activities. But staying active is important to keeping your body healthy and actually helps to prevent falls. So don’t let a fear of falling keep you from being active! Learn about what causes falls and how to lower your risk of falling so you can feel more comfortable with staying active."
National Institute of Aging
Fall Prevention - Helpful tips to keep you safe and steady on your Feet
Tai chi can Help - Register for our next Tai Chi classes at Lourdes Tai Chi Program: beginners class Start April 9th, 2024
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital
STEADI for Older Adults Falls are common in adults ages 65 and older, but are not a normal part of aging and many can be prevented. CDC’s STEADI initiative encourages adults ages 65...
Home Safety - Fall prevention - helpful tips brought to you by CDC
Tai chi can improve balance and prevent falls
register for our next classes held at Guthrie- Lourdes Vestal … starting April 9th, 2024
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital
STEADI Home Safety Tour Falls are common and costly in adults, ages 65 and older, but many are preventable. Most older adult falls happen at home. Learn to make your home, or a love...
“It is all about their Tai Chi shoes”
The story of two friends and their personal Tai Chi journey at Lourdes:
As they write :
“Tai Chi and its amazing effects on our life”
This is a true story based on our personal experience with being introduced to the world of Tai Chi.
Approximately one year ago a co-worker mentioned to me that they were taking Tai Chi classes. It tweaked my interest since I am always looking for ways to improve my health and feel better about myself.
I am 72 years old and still working full-time as a Registered Nurse. I obtained a schedule of classes and immediately contacted my best friend, also a Registered Nurse (retired). We agreed that this sounded like something we would both like to try and we registered for our first class at Lourdes.
The class and instructor were amazing. Now mind you after the first 15 minutes we were dying to sit down and we both thought “I will never be able to do this.” Out of sheer stubbornness and perseverance we would not sit down and continued to follow the directions of our instructor. We have never regretted that first class. We have continued faithfully to attend classes 2x/week and practice daily independently or with each other.
We even went so far as to order shoes with embroidered dragons specifically for Tai Chi.
The key is to practice, practice, practice!! We have so many positive changes in our lives since starting Tai Chi.
Our strength and endurance have improved immensely, we are aware of our posture at all times and we feel healthy and elated. There is such a positive component attached to this art and we encourage anyone who is interested in improving their lifestyle to give this a try.
The people we have met in our classes are all wonderful and very supportive of one another as is our instructor and his wonderful wife who has also invited us to partake in her classes. We know that we will be Tai Chi participants for life and will continue to practice on a daily basis.
Our motto, “A day without Tai Chi is like a day without breathing”.
Barb and Monika
Tai chi for Arthritis Participants
Lourdes Tai Chi program
Lourdes offers variety of Tai chi for health classes every 8 weeks through out the year.
Call them and leave a message for more information for their next classes (607) 698-6081 or to see class listing, schedule and fees visit
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital-0
Couples SUN Style Tai Chi Journey at Lourdes
from Beginners to Advance … work in progress
Tai Chi isn’t just for Martial Arts. It is for improving health and an exercise for body and mind and an enjoyable activity for couples too!!!
My journey to Tai Chi began a long time ago. Back when I was young, I was fascinated with the martial arts. I remember watching Bruce Lee playing Kato on the Green Hornet and watching the TV show Kung Fu. But back then I was quite young and never had the opportunity to take any classes. As I grew older I use to watch all the various martial arts movies on TV. Eventually, I moved into the Binghamton area and decided to take up Karate. I took classes for about 6 months and advanced to the rank of Green Belt but I felt underwhelmed. I just didn't feel like Karate was for me. And there I let things set for decades, never taking classes or even looking for ones.
Then in 2019 I retired and, one day while at Lourdes, I saw the poster for the Tai Chi classes that Lourdes was offering. I snapped a picture of the poster and went home and looked it up. It intrigued me and I signed up for the Tai Chi for Arthritis classes. Even though I did not have arthritis, I felt that the classes would benefit me and help loosen up my muscles and joints, which had become less flexible over the years. I had a desk job for most of my career and just didn't exercise much. As I took the classes I felt like this is what I was looking for, unlike when I took karate years ago. And after taking the Tai Chi for Arthritis classes I moved on up to Sun 73 Forms, which is where I am now.
In the three years since I began taking Tai Chi, I have noticed a difference in my flexibility, endurance and coordination. I believe that everyone can benefit from taking Tai Chi. And it doesn't matter how old you are or how athletic you are, anyone can learn the forms. The movements are done at a slow pace and are low impact, perfect for helping people with balance, flexibility or movement issues. Even those that have limited mobility can take these classes and benefit from them. The forms and exercises can be modified by the Tai Chi Instructors at Lourdes to take into account any physical limitations you may have, even those who use a walker or are in a wheelchair.
There is no competitiveness between the participants. If anything, there is a friendship that is built between all the people in the class. And that is important. The friendly, helpful atmosphere relaxes everyone. And I think that is one of the keys to the success of the program. It allows people to make mistakes and not feel like a spotlight is shown on them. Another key is that you can progress at your own pace. This is important as people learn at different speeds. And once you have learned the forms, you can perform the forms in different combinations based on your needs and abilities. The forms are not the end all/be all of what Tai Chi is about. They are a path to you discovering what works for you, your abilities and your needs.
And this journey doesn't have to be a solo journey. You can do it with a spouse, significant other or even a friend. After I had started taking the classes, and talking about them with my wife, she became interested in taking them. She was starting to have problems with arthritis and was looking for a way to help with the pain and stiffness. And taking these classes has definitely worked for her. It has helped tremendously with the pain and stiffness. She has taken the Tai Chi for Arthritis classes and is now enrolled in the Sun 73 Forms classes. We both enjoy taking classes together, and even attend each others classes. It is a good physical activity that the both of us can enjoy together and will hopefully help us to stay healthy for many years.
In Strength, Friendship, Humility and Respect
CM & DM
Sun 73 Participants at Lourdes Tai chi program
Evening beginners Tai chi Classes start May 6, 2024
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital-0
Tai chi helps boost memory, study finds. One type seems most beneficial Research shows that a daily dose of tai chi, the slow-moving meditative, martial art can boost our body and brain. A new study finds adding word games to tai chi doubles the increase in memory.
https://www.sciencealert.com/tai-chi-can-reduce-severity-of-parkinsons-scientists-find
Tai Chi Can Reduce Severity of Parkinson's, Scientists Find The centuries-old martial art of tai chi is shown to have many health benefits – including improving balance, reducing anxiety and preventing cardiovascular disease.
Beginners tai chi classes starting this fall at Lourdes Vestal. Day classes Starting September 18th , meeting twice a week Mondays and Wednesdays for 6 weeks - 12 classes for $45.00
For class listing and more information visit https://ascension-ny.regfox.com/lourdes4taichi-fall2023?mibextid=Zxz2cZ
Tai chi for Beginners classes this Fall at Lourdes Vestal . Evening classes starting July 19th twice a week every Tuesday and Thursday for 8 weeks . Total cost $60.00 . More information
Visit https://ascension-ny.regfox.com/lourdes4taichi-fall2023?mibextid=Zxz2cZ
Beginning or Expanding your Tai chi practice Beyond Basics - Fall 2023 Tai chi for Health classes are series of short- form tai chi movements that address a specific health condition through movement therapy and application of tai chi principles. Each specific class is 4-8 weeks long that meets once or twice a week for total of 4-16 classes. Each Class session leads to...
Improving Balance reducing Risk of Falls.
Tai Chi for Beginners classes starting week of September 18. Morning and Evening Classes
For information and registration visit
Beginning or Expanding your Tai chi practice Beyond Basics - Fall 2023 Tai chi for Health classes are series of short- form tai chi movements that address a specific health condition through movement therapy and application of tai chi principles. Each specific class is 4-8 weeks long that meets once or twice a week for total of 4-16 classes. Each Class session leads to...
It is Right versus Left and there I go to a different direction - A participating Occupational Therapist's perspective of Tai chi for Health at Lourdes
My Tai Chi journey began in 2019, when my husband and I decided to take the beginner’s course of Tai Chi for arthritis. As an Occupational Therapist with 40 years’ experience working in the area of adult physical disability rehabilitation, I was impressed with Tai Chi’s holistic approach to health and movement. The Tai Chi principles emphasize movement, balance, and cognition to strengthen the mind/body connection.
I know remaining physically and mentally active as we age are important factors to determine the quality of our lives, enabling us to be independent in our self-care and mobility. I have worked with hundreds of patients that report how a stroke or fall or cardiac event have forced them to be less independent and needing to rely on others for assistance. The Tai Chi principles emphasize core strength, posture, and breathing techniques to allow our bodies to move and react to challenges of balance, stress and pain which may hinder our function. Tai Chi rhythmic and low impact movement are designed to improve range of motion, flexibility, strength, coordination, endurance, and weight shift.
The movements can be modified to accommodate a variety of medical conditions which may require alternative foot and arm movements or performing exercises holding onto a chair or seated. The Lourdes’s Tai Chi instructors are well trained and can provide the student with specific modifications to ensure a successful experience.
The practice of Tai Chi is a holistic approach to wellness. Cognitive benefits start with the mind/body connection in which the body responds to the way you think, feel, and react to situations. Tai Chi has a calming effect through utilizing breathing techniques and fluidity of movement to reduce stress and anxiety. Memory skills become sharper, as movements are repeated and built-upon (It is also helpful to have a good understanding of right and left ). My memory and concentration skills continue to improve as I progress through my practice.
Finally. I look forwards to my 2x/week Tai Chi SUN 73 classes trying to master a new movement or sequence can be very rewarding (and hilarious, that right/left thing)! My confidence when mastering a sequence is a great source of pride. The classes are very comfortable and supportive. The Lourdes’s Tai Chi instructors are very knowledgeable and patient.
My Tai Chi journey has been both personally and professionally rewarding. At times, I can include some movement sequences in my own patient practice as an Occupational Therapist. I would highly recommend the Lourdes Tai Chi program to anyone interested in improving their health and well-being.
In strength, friendships, and humility,
Mickey
SUN73 participant at Lourdes Tai Chi program
Next beginners class:
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital-0
Life Boat of Tai chi - A Smooth and Continuous Sail through rough waters: A Participant's wobbly, tottering, teetering story of her journey to better health through Tai chi at Lourdes.
A Rehab patient’s perspective
This Journey started through stages and has lead me where I am at present time in my tai chi journey :
STAGE 1 - My health challenge taking me to seek medical help:
I was just about to retire from work as a public school teacher and I was experiencing significant vestibular issues that affected my balance and challenging my safety and fear of falling leading to inactivity and self isolation. I worked with a physical therapist at Lourdes who suggested after our weeks of rehabilitation to follow up with a Tai chi program that Lourdes offered to help continue with my progress. I was surprised that I had never heard of such program being offered in a health care setting as a mode of therapy. At this point my stamina, balance and confidence remained significantly compromised. I used a walking stick for support and the uneasiness with which I was experiencing being out and about in the world, effected my anxiety level which shattered my confidence and my inability to function with my day to day activities.
STAGE 2- My medical help lead me to a start of my Tai chi practice for a hope of gaining some normalcy:
At the start of my Tai chi experience I used a chair to hold on to and tend to sit a lot in class doing the foot movements and arms from a seated position. My Instructor modified my practice to slowly build my strength , stamina, flexibility and confidence and created a safe and trusting environment where I could be supported and accepted for my limitations as I worked through them with others. During these classes I realized I was not alone, and there were many others with their own health stories that joined the program in hope to improve their health. I have stayed with the program from when I began from Beginners class ' Tai chi for Arthritis 6 forms (SUN Style) and have progressed and advanced to SUN 73 forms. Four and a half years later, I no longer need that chair or my walking stick and I participate in a 73 form practice of continuous movements for a duration of the class that is about 45 minute to 1 hour long.
My commitment to my practice has made me grown and learned much about the connection of my mind and body through my movements. Each class has taught me something new and I have incorporated the Tai Chi principles as a foundation to a better balance in my day long practice of life.
STAGE 3 - My Tai Chi practice providing much benefits to my health and well being:
Through this period I have noticed in becoming more mindful of my day to day activities while at home or when outside. I am very aware of my movements when going in and out of the shower, while climbing stairs and while walking outside; bringing about much confidence with utmost ease and assurance.
My anxiety has lessened tremendously, my strength and abilities have greatly improved and I am in class with other participants in a safe and secure environment sharing a special hour twice a week exploring our challenges and ongoing limitations through our practice as we continue to improve upon with much laughter and smiles and acceptance and support of one another.
My core strength has began to develop, the strength in all my extremities have greatly improved, and I am no longer labeled as walking like a "Drunken Sailor". Tai chi has afforded me so much, as in each class I draw my strength and energy from the group that is uniquely a part of my practice.
STAGE 4 - My health and well being bridges a connection to my youth and created a greater sense of peace and harmony by accepting the realities of aging to maintain a healthier me:
I spent a lot of my youth and younger adult days as a dancer. The flow of my Tai chi practice resonates to my dancing days. It's a beautiful fluid practice that I love to do passionately, takes me back in time when I had no fear and was young and flexible and filled with energy and vitality and danced my way through life. Yet there is so much more to this than just a flow of movements, it is a flowing meditation in motion bringing me much peace and tranquility and accepting where I am at this point of my life.
STAGE 5- My state of peace and harmony has brought about A Life transformation:
My life has transformed from Uncertain Instability to a journey of confident balance, as now I Tai Chi my way through my older years of life. Perhaps one day I will be able to get on a boat and sail my Tai chi into the waters as I anticipate there will be calmer waters ahead through my ongoing practice. Tai chi indeed has been my "life boat" to better health.
STAGE 6 - My life transformation has given me an appreciation for the practice and all those involved in this journey:
I'm grateful to the Physical therapist who recommended this program to me and for me to be able to continue to participate in my Tai chi Journey with knowledgeable and caring Instructors and other fellow participants at Lourdes, making new friends, while sharing this personal journey as I continue to improve in my health and gain better understanding of my practice within a collective community of others in the program.
And these were the stages of my health journey through an alternative therapy that works and my road to a healthier me through Tai chi for better health
In friendship, with strength and Humility
ERW
Sun 73 Tai chi Participant with Lourdes Tai chi program
https://www.guthrie.org/classes-events/tai-chi-health-beginners-class-guthrie-lourdes-hospital-0
From the Beginners class to SUN73 … An ongoing journey at Lourdes Tai chi Program
“ Better late than never “
Kathleen’s Story:
" I have taken Tai Chi for several years at Lourdes, not knowing what it was all about, just hearing that it would improve my balance.
I am a very active person and play pickleball and involved in other activities to keep myself moving and to stay fit during retirement. I have learned Tai chi is something different: an exercise for both mind and body. I find the classes have a calming effect. It has made me become more mindful of my movements and my surroundings. The practice of the forms has definitely helped my balance. Several times when I stumbled or tripped, I have been able to prevent myself from falling, not during classes but in everyday life, and prevented me from sustaining some serious injuries. I have attributed this not to pure luck but to the practice of the Tai chi principles I learned in my classes over these past years of practice. It has almost become a natural instinct and having developed reflexes that are embedded in my body’s awareness of motions and actions in preventing falls.
Our instructors in the program monitor our body mechanics so we do not put extra strain on our muscles and joints with consideration of participants safety as the utmost important feature of their program.
I have experienced that by including Tai chi practice as part of my routine weekly exercise, it has literally brought a better balance of mind and body and a physical balance to a point that I am able to continue to enjoy my active life style at age 75+.
I have been with Lourdes Tai chi program for 6 years. During these years I have progressed in my tai chi journey from learning SUN style - 6 forms to completing the SUN 73 forms. I feel a sense of great acomplishment just remembering them all and the sequence of the forms in my practice . This has helped me with my memory and concentration to my surprise.
My Tai chi Practice has definitely been very beneficial in my life and I look forward to my classes held twice a week at Lourdes Vestal, Shippers Road, just right after my Pickleball.
I strongly recommend my fellow Pickleball enthusiasts to take on Tai chi, it might help your flexibility and reduce your risk of injury on court.... Just a thought!!!
In Strength, Friendship and Humility
Kathleen I.
Sun 73 participant
https://ascension-ny.regfox.com/lourdes4taichi-summer2023
It is all about improving Balance and preventing falls in seniors and keeping them living Independently through Tai Chi practice.
A 95 year old participant at Lourdes Tai chi program shares her experience :
“ My participation in the Tai Chi classes at lourdes has been a life-saving experience. My muscles have been strengthened: first with the warm-up exercises and then with the tai chi forms learned in different classes. My concentration is improving; my mind can’t wander.
Taking part in these classes has improved my sense of balance. Many years ago I fell and broke a hip; a few years later I fell and broke the other hip, and a few years after that, I fell and injured my knee. Since my participation in the Tai Chi program, I have not broken any bones. Without the discipline of participating in the Tai Chi classes, I think my sense of balance would decrease.
Now at age 95, and after several years of Tai Chi classes, my sense of good balance has increased, so that I can continue to walk a mile on the Vestal Rail Trail.
I recommend fellow seniors in giving Tai Chi a try and explore its health benefits as I have experienced it during my past 6 years at Lourdes Tai Chi program. This is a best thing you can do for your self to keep you fall free and living independently reducing your risk of falls and in keeping your joints moving.
Joan A.
Lourdes Tai Chi program participant
Tai chi for Health - Beginners 1 (Summer 2023) Tai chi for Health classes introduces the participants to series of short-form tai chi movements that address chronic health conditions, through movement therapy and application of tai chi principles. This course is 6 weeks long that meets twice a week for a total of 12 classes. Each class session l...
https://mailchi.mp/taichiproductions/2023-06-commune-announcement?e=dc199e8764
➡️ Free 8-Day Tai Chi for Health course by Dr Paul Lam with Commune When Commune invited me to be the first tai chi instructor on their platform, I had a look. Their mission is to create a global wellness community around the practices and ideas of the world’s greatest teachers. It aligns with my mission of health and wellness through tai chi. I have found them si...
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